Ovi Magazine : DÃ©jÃ -vu in 'little quiet' Finland by Asa Butcher

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Once again Finland and the watching world are treated to a violent glimpse into the deeply disturbed social problems that are affecting the heart of its society, yet have been ignored for far too long. Another misguided Finn, the second in eleven months, has climbed out of the sewer and made a statement that used more innocent lives as horrific punctuation marks.

Finland and that same watching world naively cry out, "How can this happen to quiet little Finland?" and the answer is they actually believe Finland is little and quiet. They believe their own stereotype. They believe the self-made propaganda that Finland is this lottery prize when there are severe social issues that demand to be dealt with. Take a look at many of the youth of this country that revel in swastikas, fascist beliefs and display them proudly upon their body like medals.

Finland received its first warning last November when nine people, including the perpetrator, died in a school in Tuusula. In the aftermath, along with those similar cries, "How can this happen to quiet little Finland?", the Finnish government banged its fist on the table and declared that action would be taken and Finland would soon be little and quiet again… how naïve they were.

Yesterday's slaughter in Kauhajoki has left many in the government with blood on their hands. What action was taken following last November? The government leapt into action and commissioned an investigation that resulted in a 2,000-page police report released in April this year. The only use that paper now has is for the government to handwrite apologies to the families, friends and people of Kauhajoki because it is otherwise worthless.

Oh yes, the Finnish government have already declared, once again, that action will be taken and I'm sure we can hardly wait for the 3,000-page report to be released in February 2009. It was the unenviable role of Finland's Finance Minister Jyrki Katainen to pledge action, but unsurprisingly failed to list a single measure that the government would take. They have no idea at what to do because, hell, they are only a little quiet country.

Finland's Justice Minister Tuija Brax suggested that gun laws should come under review as soon as possible. Why wasn't that done last November, or December, or January, or any other month this year? Anyway, Finland may have the highest number of weapons per person in the world, but that doesn't mean the country is trigger happy. Many Finns own more than three guns that are used for hunting, so why focus on the wrong reasons just so you can feel good at having done something this time?

Forget the gun laws, focus on the reasons these kids are driven to squeezing the trigger. Finland's youth have some serious self-esteem problems, some don't see a future, some are disillusioned and some are inspired by a frightening sense of patriotism, chauvinism if you will. They need help and it won't come in the form of changing an idiotic gun law or compiling multi-thousand page reports, and it won't come in weeks.

If the Finnish government had been really serious about the events back in November, if they had really given a damn about the victims and solving the problem, then today when asked what they plan to do they would have listed a number of solutions, schemes, treatments, action plans and so on that are already in place following the results of the report into last year's tragedy, but they had nothing. They had done nothing. As I said, they have blood on their hands and it is going to take an inordinate amount of work to clean it off and I don't believe it should ever completely come off because it is never ever going to leave the hearts and minds of the people of Kauhajoki.

Kauhajoki high-school-shooting Finland

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Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-24 11:23:48
In The Sickness unto Death Kierkegaard wrote that "The specific character of despair is that it is unaware of its despair'' One may call Kierkegaard a doomsayer but, I submit that such despair unware of even being in despair is tragedy of the highest order and it is operating as we speak among the youth of the affluent countries in the industrialized world. Collectively and metaphorically we all have some blood on our hands vis a vis the formation of our youth, for indeed that despair as a civilization is ours too.


Sand	2008-09-24 11:53:16
To regard a singular incident as a symptom of a national malaise is going overboard in jumping to conclusions. Perhaps some modification of gun laws may help but anyone who is moderately clever and intent on doing major damage with firearms probably can do so. The problems in solving difficulties with disturbed individuals are a matter of psychological health and the solutions require a thorough examination of major health areas. Finland's problem is in no way comparable to the gun toting gangs in major US cities with easy illegal access to guns provided by an uncontrolled gun industry.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-24 16:21:37
If one reads reflectively the Time piece on this tragedy by Roger Boyes(the same journalist who covered the Jokela school shooting; see above link) what is most striking is the conception of education he exposes as a place where one learns logic and math and manipulation of the environment and physics; that is to say a rationalistic approach devoid of imagination aiming at performance, utilitarianism and grades and contemptuous of what is less useful to creature comfort and life-style, neglectful of the education of the heart and the emotions which traditionally was integral part of a holistic education educating the whole person, mind, body and spirit. I would suggest that the root causes of such a conception of education is what needs to be urgently debated in our brave new world so knoledgeable of the how and so neglectful of the why and the wonder of existence. Not to do is to be stuck on appearances and banalities, on counting guns and coming up with no brainers such as "it is not guns that kill people, it is people who kill people."


AP	2008-09-24 16:21:43
"Finland's youth have some serious self-esteem problems, some don't see a future, some are disillusioned and some are inspired by a frightening sense of patriotism, chauvinism if you will. They need help and it won't come in the form of changing an idiotic gun law" I can see what you and Sand mean, but I think changing the law and restricting the access to guns was urgent already some 5 years ago. If finnish youth have serious self-esteem problems, I'm sorry to say, but that's not just a matter of health: it's a matter of education above all. For god sake: ethiopian, viatnamese, peruvian, kenyan, mozambican, guatemalan, afghan, iraqui, sudanese, palestinian, zimbabwean youth have reasons no to see a future, finnish ones not really!! And they travel more than any of these above, how can't they understand that? (I think that they begin to compare themselves with others very often, and they just can't understand the inequalities they see) All teenagers are disillusioned, but only some are allowed to play with all the toys! Don't teach them nationalistic fairy tales, but the truth, then the disappointment (anyway, I still wonder if this disappointment can be any bigger than the one most teenagers in the world normally face...!) won't be so great, and the feeling that they were cheated can be attenuated.


AP	2008-09-24 16:25:42
"vietnamese" "iraqi"


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-24 16:25:43
Sorry, here is the link to the Time peace mentioned above. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/global/article4812776.ece


Sand	2008-09-24 16:35:32
The offered Times link has a 404 error, whatever that might be.


Sand	2008-09-24 16:40:31
Of course, all that scientific education is beyond the imaginative capability of Paparella. What he wants is an inculcation of mythological fantasy so that any gun owner will cower under the belief that the gods will strike him dead with a lightning bolt if his aim wanders. Finns, unfortunately, have the odd idea lightning is merely misplaced electricity, not heavenly vengeance.


AP	2008-09-24 16:41:32
I really can't see why there should be a specific national youth despair anchored in the prospect of a particularly dark future, if even in unemployment finnish youth is, generally, more supported than most youths in the world. If all this uncontrollable anger has any social root, it might be deeper than you think. It's just that they are not stupid nor mere low-esteem guys, they follow an agenda: they look around them and begin to understand that, if everything is connected and we live in a global world, well inequalities are rather unbearable in that same world and something is truly wrong in the way the world organises itself. Besides simply misguided, nuts and mistaken in their methods, they might be much more political in their anger than you think, that's what I tell you. This questioning goes much deeper, socially (if you really want to follow that path).


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-24 17:10:03
The Time piece can be read under yesterday's article on the Hydra by Thanos. Just as I predicted under the piece by Thanos of today. Oh, well! It is the enlightened people who need enlightenment and that discernment will not happen till they begin to realize that far from having the solution, they are part of the problem of today's youth.


Sand	2008-09-24 17:48:00
I find it disturbing that two incidents inspired by the American Columbine shooting and carried out by psychologically disturbed youths are quickly perceived as somehow typical of the entire population of Finnish youth. The vituperation elicited for the entire nation seems to me grossly insensitive and callous and unjustified for such a terrible tragedy. Although Finnish gun ownership is high, gun fatalities amount to 14% as compared to 67% in the USA. Of course any fatalities should not be easily tolerated but the Finns have a reasonable record in this matter. My personal experience with Finns has found them tolerant, kind, helpful and generous. Perhaps I hang out with the wrong crowd.


AP	2008-09-24 18:41:35
"I find it disturbing that two incidents inspired by the American Columbine shooting" Be careful with the American scapegoat argument Sand, don't forget that millions of teenagers got to know what happened in Columbine and saw it on tv, but they didn't copy it everywhere, crazy or not crazy. Some circumstances (such as gun access and cultural/educational aspects) make it easier for some to copy these things. I insist in gun access why? Because: 1. it doesn't seem to me that Finnish youth has worst access to healthcare services and even psychological services at school than any other teenagers in most western countries, on the contrary (they're even ahead of the american teenagers on this) 2. it doesn't seem to me that most finnish teenagers are in essence different from other teenagers in the western world, nor that they are particularly prone to copy bad american influences (many actually express an open disgust towards most American fashions, even if then in practice they are not consistent...) 3. it certainly is not true that finnish youth faces harder problems than most other teenagers in the world 4. it does look like some legal and educational mistakes have been made (which can make it easier for disturbed personalities to manifest themselves in a given way) 5. it does look like the finnish police (not to mention the inertness of the government on this topic) didn't really do what they should - and if they suspected of an immitation case, they were grossly incompetent (even compared with american authorities), as they had all the indications by the book that he was going to act soon and they didn't aprehend his gun(s), legal or not 6. just as in America, there seem to exist in Finland individuals who make good profits with gun sale, and who have some kind of connection and influence over the political power 7. why don't italian, ukranian, mozambican, french, chilean, nigerian, even swedish or brazilian teenagers (and for these ones illegal access to guns is so damned easy) "immitate" Columbine too? there must be some reason.


Sand	2008-09-24 19:07:13
No doubt the incidents were spectacular. But frankly to generalize from two to all Finnish youth does not strike me as being reasonable. I don't know what goes on in the youth community of the other nations you mentioned and I doubt that you do either. In many of those communities terrible violence is simply not reported. Many times psychological deviations go undetected even by family members for years.The acclaimed American writer David Foster Wallace who gave no hint of his reasons committed suicide just a few days ago to the great surprise of his close associates. What goes on in people's minds is not that obvious. You seem rather perceptive, unlike Paparella, so I am surprised you hold so steadily to this strange conviction that two strange youths determine a pattern for the whole country. Perhaps the police should have been more alert. But three experienced NY Policemen shot an innocent man to death with a fusillade of 40 bullets because he waived his wallet at them. And they got off scot-free. Things happen and I do not hold the entire police force responsible.


AP	2008-09-24 19:25:46
8. why do Swiss teens prefer to suicide themselves with disturbing frequency using guns, rather than doing massive slaughters at school? 9. why do many UK teens prefer to use knives lately? 10. why don't the American teenagers "immitate" these behaviors of some British and Swiss teens? 11. why don't Finnish teens "immitate" the British knives fashion instead or the Swiss merely suicidal tendencies? 12. "Luxembourg totally bans all guns from civilian ownership. France, Belgium and Germany allow citizens to own handguns but these countries are more restrictive than most U.S. states. In Austria, every law-abiding citizen has a legal right to buy handguns. And then there is Switzerland, where the laws are similar to those in Israel and gun availability is comparable to that in the U.S. By the end of 2006 there were somewhat over 1.6 million licensed firearms in Finland. Small Arms Survey 2007 by Graduate Institute of International Studies claims that there are almost the double (both registered and unregistered)."


Sand	2008-09-24 19:33:30
The questions you ask are no doubt important but not to be put aside by snap judgments. They call for real intensive studies. For one thing I doubt that many American kids even know where Finland is or what goes on in the country. I have no idea about what the kids in other countries know and it would be extremely stupid to make conclusions from total ignorance or prejudiced supposition.


AP	2008-09-24 19:45:54
"But frankly to generalize from two to all Finnish youth does not strike me as being reasonable" I DID NOT do so! Did you read what I wrote? I wrote: "it doesn't seem to me that most finnish teenagers are in essence different from other teenagers in the western world"!! This is my true belief!! I was merely analysing Asa's article, where he seems to attribute these events to very specific and deep psychological problems of the Finnish youth (in that case I'm available to work for the Finnish government, maybe employment chances for foreign psychologists become better now) and also your sentence: "The problems in solving difficulties with disturbed individuals are a matter of psychological health". "you hold so steadily to this strange conviction that two strange youths determine a pattern for the whole country." Well I don't!! I was analysing why this specific form of violence and why not in France, the UK or even Brazil (no Columbine happened in Brazil, other nasty things happen, but not the same type of things), and why do you think that Finn teenagers are more prone to immitate a specific American crime than other teenagers in this world? As I see no obvious reason for that (though it might exist), I was wondering. This does not stop me from seeing police mistakes, of course. And I see them in Finland just as I see them in the US, Spain or Brazil. It depends of what we're talking about, really.


AP	2008-09-24 19:56:43
American teens know at least where the UK is, and they certainly heard yesterday about Finland (influences don't work just in one direction, by the way). All the other European kids heard about Columbine, and in South America they did too (they do have tellies, newspapers and Youtube there!!).


Sand	2008-09-24 20:01:27
"why do you think that Finn teenagers are more prone to imitate a specific American crime than other teenagers in this world?" Your statement but then you claim not to generalize. Two Finnish teenagers imitate American crime and suddenly it's all Finnish teenagers.


Sand	2008-09-24 20:05:54
A National Geographic survey has recently caused consternation among those who have a real interest in the education of the youth of the United States. That survey, which was a test of the geographic knowledge of youth of many nations. The young people of this country displayed an abysmal ignorance of the most basic facts of world geography and even of the geography of their own nation. According to the survey, only one out of seven Americans between the ages of 18 and 24 could find Iraq or Iran on a world map. Despite so much comment in the news lately about Afghanistan only 58 percent were aware of that nation and ONLY 17 percent could find it on the map! Displaying even greater ignorance, when asked to find ten U.S. states on the map, only 89 percent could find Texas and California and only 51 percent could locate New York. When asked to locate sixteen countries on a world map, these geographic ‘wide-awakes’ could only find seven of the sixteen. Twenty nine percent couldn’t find the diminutive PACIFIC OCEAN! Eleven percent couldn’t even find their own country, the UNITED STATES on the world map!


AP	2008-09-24 20:35:06
"Two Finnish teenagers imitate American crime and suddenly it's all Finnish teenagers" Not all, no. In that case I will reformulate: "Why do you think that two Finnish teenagers were more prone, in less than a year, to imitate this specific American crime than two other teenagers elsewhere?" For this case, I don't think it really matters if they think Finland is in Asia or a US State, what matters is that they have access to the information too and yesterday's tragedy was widely divulged. I hope that you're not trying to imply that some Finnish kids are more supple/influenced by mass slaughters in schools because they are more geographically "wide-awake", it would be a strange criterion really.


Sand	2008-09-24 20:54:32
No, what I'm trying to say is I don't know and neither do you. People are individuals, whether they are American, Finnish or Portuguese. If you want to know what goes on in their heads you have to study them and if you find out that the same thing goes on in other kids' heads, then you might be able to get to find out a general influence that can be the seed for some conclusions. Two kids are not a worthwhile statistical sample although they might be an indication that proper sampling would be worthwhile.


AP	2008-09-24 20:58:34
You're really doing some kind of "defense of the national honour" and taking this thing a bit too personally, aren't you Sand? You seem to feel that merely wondering about causes or talking about it is exaggerated or inappropriate. Now, I understand that you have reasons to love Finland deeply, but if people wonder or feel shocked it is not because they hate Finland, it's just because they care about it too. One should never be noncritical, not about Finnish authorities nor about the authorities of any other country in the world. Personally, I can be very critical about the authorities of my country. It is true that I feel like a better portuguese when I'm abroad, but I don't abolish critical sense. Come on.


Sand	2008-09-24 21:05:34
As much as I like living in Finland, it has nothing to do with preventing me from thinking clearly. I am merely laying out the correct procedure to come to intelligent conclusions about a very emotional incident. I might just as well ask why you feel it important to judge a whole culture from the behavior of two psychologically aberrant individuals. I am just being very careful.


AP	2008-09-24 21:18:12
"and if you find out that the same thing goes on in other kids' heads, then you might be able to get to find out a general influence that can be the seed" This doesn't mean that you can't have intuitions. But of course it would be a very interesting study, I just wonder if anyone in Finland would allow it to be done, considering the fervent patriotic prides (which have nothing to do with it, really). It is not something you can really sample either, as kids don't usually admit: "Yes, I am going to kill myself and a number of colleagues and friends this week at school", they just give you some other tips. Video ones are pretty obvious and everybody knows it means, in most cases, that they decided already to act soon, so prudence is advisable.


AP	2008-09-24 21:21:58
"why you feel it important to judge a whole culture from the behavior of two psychologically aberrant individuals" Simple answer: I am not. :) And why do you feel important to trivialize it as if it was inevitable?


Sand	2008-09-24 21:25:37
That's all I'm saying. It's very important information and very tough to discover. If you know anything about Finnish history it has gone through some very strange and very brutal times. Many people had to flee the country to stay alive after independence and the war between the Reds and the Whites had some very horrible phases. But people change. The whole of Germany and Europe probably will not forget the Nazi era but Germany is now well accepted in the European community.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-24 21:31:40
There we go; twenty two more comments and we'll have surpassed the 47 written under Thanos's "To be born a Finn" last year after the first studnet shoot out. Deja vu? Indeed, as I wrote under under today's article by Thanos, I wish I am wrong; unfortunately I am not. Here we are again; the issue has been again been transformed into a a diatribe about Finnish culture redolent of a defense and comparison of superior and inferior races and cultures, while the real issue which is about the universal nature of the human being, what does it mean to be and act humanly, and the kind of rational paradigm of reality we are transmitting to and educating our young with is wholly side-stepped. The Time article reproduced under the article on the Hydra by Thanos yesterday, has not even been mentioned if indeed it has been read. It at least hinted at the real issue. To say it with Cicero: o tempora, o mores!


Sand	2008-09-24 21:51:18
It's unseemly, Paparella, to dump your garbage in the middle of a decent conversation.


AP	2008-09-24 22:25:11
"If you know anything about Finnish history it has gone through some very strange and very brutal times. (...) But people change." Come on, Sand, what does that have to do with this? Who is judging Finnish History here? Not me. You just can't assume you're a bit sentimentally biased about Finland. Yes, Mr. Sand has strong feelings about something!


AP	2008-09-24 22:32:26
And through that strong emotional connection one can catch you being very indulgent sometimes. Come on, I've called attention to this subject before and I know what I'm talking about, so has Thanos and as far as I know he knows what he's talking about too, and some other people.


AP	2008-09-24 22:43:31
And, about this topic, you've affirmed both that "people, not guns, are the problem but people are difficult or impossible to change" and "But people change". Well, whatever you like at different times, who am I to say? I would say some people change, some others don't ever change, there are no definite rules, but that's another kind of discussion.


Eero Nevalainen	2008-09-25 02:06:05
Unfortunately, government can't trivially just solve all problems -- it should be understood as a given. It's as sad as that... and this coming from someone who actually believes that government can help solve certain problems. You can't legislate that "you REALLY REALLY shouldn't go shoot up your school, it's bad, mmkay?" Of course, conservatives around the net are again having a field day telling us to "draw conclusions" from the actions of a crazy copycat. It's always the fault of the system when conservatives aren't getting their way -- when they are, it's always the fault of the individual. Handy, is it not? To "understand" the actions of these shooters according to the lines of the underlying assumptions of commentators like Boyles is a bit like trying to prove that WW2 was caused by not appeasing the poor Nazis enough. Our youth may have a lot of pressures put on them and our sense of community may have weakened, but I'd rather tackle those problems on their own terms as they are instead of taking my cue from some statistical outlier idiot who is by all means beyond help by own choice. If I did that, my hand could be forced by any act of terrorism. Both Auvinen and Saari had remarkable opportunities in life handed to them compared to a lot of people on this planet -- I'd take Tuusula over Nigeria any day -- and yet they chose to hate all of it and make their point by gun instead of joining the Coalition Party to push their agenda. Finland may not be paradise, but to blame Finland generally as it is for not being paradise enough because some people violently disagree is nonsense, and comes across as gloating. "Ha-ha, you fail this time". I'd much rather see a comprehensive list of suggestions of what exactly needs to be done about things, and why. Violence has deep roots in Finnish history and culture, and a trivialized contemporary analysis that pretends that this has somehow now come about here out of nowhere is totally naive. It's just that it has found a new form of expression in the heads of a few lunatics, and unfortunately, now that it's becoming established as a "school shooting tradition" with its morbid heroes, I for one am expecting more. There's no way to stop it if someone chooses to do it. Linked to the latent underlying "violent individualism" facet of Finnishness -- which is, by the way, in its healthy form never directed at innocent bystanders (consider American redneck conservatism, it's surprisingly close minus the Finnish general acceptance of "socialism") -- is the more unfortunate "loser culture" among drop-out youths. This kind of social division started to be come about during the 90s recession, and these days despite all external appearances, you can end up on the wrong track (and some idiot social-worker-psychologist lady who tries to "help" just gets laughed at by Auvinen and pals). THIS is the problem in prosperous, achieving Finland, and it needs to be identified for what it is instead of being turned into all-out general opportunistic Finland-bashing. I do, however, remain optimistic that this particular issue can be tackled judiciously and without knee-jerk government reactions. Generalizing it childishly as "OMG Finland is teh awful!!1" is stupid and outright fenno-phobic, though.


AP	2008-09-25 02:42:03
"There's no way to stop it if someone chooses to do it." Now Eero, this is a profound mistake, to think like this - because at least in this case there were pretty obvious things that could have been done. And I don't know why you demand "even more precise measures and suggestions" all the time from other commentators, when you feel a priori that "there's no way to stop it"! Makes no sense then!! You seem to be much more pessimistic than us, as there's at least a way of trying to prevent it, right? "and some idiot social-worker-psychologist lady who tries to "help" just gets laughed at by Auvinen and pals" Sure she gets - they can kill a dozen people without blinking, why would you suppose that they would be kind towards anyone, social worker or not? It's not her fault, Eero, she was not an idiot, she probably just had no way to know she was dealing with a murderer (and social workers/psychologists are different things, by the way). I heard that most Finnish schools have a psychiatrist. "the more unfortunate "loser culture" among drop-out youths" wasn't the first shooter getting good grades before the shooting? I don't understand this individualist/loser dichotomy, if one is a selfish bastard it's obvious he's a loser too, so both categories in fact get mixed, don't they? "it needs to be identified for what it is instead of being turned into all-out general opportunistic Finland-bashing." Opportunistic why and opportunity for what? By stating that it comes across as gloating, you betray that you might think that the only reason why people who are not Finns can talk frankly about what happened is because... they are jealous!! (again that lucky lottery ticket thing, uh??) I can speak for myself, and I wasn't trying to bash Finland.


Sand	2008-09-25 04:49:52
It's pretty obvious that the characterization of "loser" as a proper explanation of someone who uses extreme violence to solve a problem is pretty shallow and not particularly useful psychologically. The guy was way off the track and surely had strong personal problems to drive him to do what he did. Personal problems cannot be generalized to a whole sector of youth without very strong statistical evidence. General economic problems can be solved in many non-violent ways and these two violent individuals are not characteristic of Finnish youth in general. In a gang society which is rampant in the USA guns are a significant characteristic. This type of organized social violence does not seem to have arisen in Finland so far as I know. Two sick individuals do not make a mass movement although the police seem to have had an opportunity to catch this one and failed. Something should be done about that.


Sand	2008-09-25 05:07:39
One additional comment about the police. Somewhere someone commented that the guy couldn't be arrested before the incident because he hadn't done anything. It seems the only options are to either ignore a potential tragedy or to throw someone potentially criminal into jail. That type of digital social reaction leaves no sensible flexibility. But we must ask ourselves an important question. Should society in general become more paranoid in the direction of the USA where police throw innocents into jail on mere suspicion or are there better less severe possible social instruments without developing an Orwellian society? This is a very difficult question in terrorist times having nothing to do with Finland in particular. Britain is spotting big brother cameras all over the place and I have heard they are not all that effective. This requires lots of intelligent thought and investigation to decide how society should sacrifice civil rights to security, when, and why. And it is a matter that requires great public debate and participation in decisions.


Eero Nevalainen	2008-09-25 05:36:05
"Now Eero, this is a profound mistake, to think like this - because at least in this case there were pretty obvious things that could have been done." If it weren't totally illegal and immoral and end me in trouble, I'd bet good money that I could pull something like this off easily. Pulling off a Petri Gerdt in a classroom would beat these guys in body count trivially, and nobody would know anything beforehand. "And I don't know why you demand "even more precise measures and suggestions" all the time from other commentators, when you feel a priori that "there's no way to stop it"! Makes no sense then!!" It makes perfect sense, as it shows that the other guys are totally talking out of their asses when they are suggesting something is horribly wrong and assuming that other people should agree and do something about it, when they don't even themselves know what exactly to subject for further discussion... "You seem to be much more pessimistic than us, as there's at least a way of trying to prevent it, right?" Great, let's hear it. "It's not her fault, Eero, she was not an idiot, she probably just had no way to know she was dealing with a murderer (and social workers/psychologists are different things, by the way)." As I said, it's hard to recognize a psychopath if they don't want to be recognized. And they certainly don't come seeking help voluntarily. "wasn't the first shooter getting good grades before the shooting? I don't understand this individualist/loser dichotomy, if one is a selfish bastard it's obvious he's a loser too, so both categories in fact get mixed, don't they?" I'm not necessarily making a dichotomy of anything here, just saying that I do recognize that we do have a failure-admiring subculture (like in some other cultures). You can consider social outsiderness a form of that if you want to. The school-shooters are an interesting category of outsiders in themselves as they tend to harbour deeply held convictions of superiority, sometimes backed by actual achievement or not (the latter guy hated humanity despite not being an academic superhero really) " Opportunistic why and opportunity for what? By stating that it comes across as gloating, you betray that you might think that the only reason why people who are not Finns can talk frankly about what happened is because... they are jealous!!" Why is it that you assume that you can only talk "frankly" about the issue if you're not Finnish and hold specifically your position, which is not even really defined in any sensible way? It seems like most foreign positions on this are simple content-free trolling, essentially saying "Finland is bad in some way because you had school shootings" (which is in some way a triviality -- school shootings are bad) and trying to elicit a response (to essentially nothing) only so that it could then be judged as defensiveness...


Eero Nevalainen	2008-09-25 06:58:33
There are some really good, thoughtful comments about this made to this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/sep/23/finland.school.shooting.comment


Eero Nevalainen	2008-09-25 07:12:29
Comment by tumppi is very good: "How about those two basement imprisoning cases in Austria? Should we blame austrian culture about those?" Yeah, those Austrians really need to 'fess up that they are a nation of closet perverts, and that this is caused by and anything else means they live in denial!


Eero Nevalainen	2008-09-25 07:13:35
... caused (by some convenient feature of society I want to oppose) .... that was meant to read


Asa	2008-09-25 08:20:55
Thanks for all the comments. They have made some great reading and given some food for thought to those voices in my head ;)


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-25 11:16:23
I had hoped to be wrong in my initial prediction under Thanos' article yesterday; unfortunately I was not. Fortunately I did not wager on it. I still think it is unfortunate that nobody took the trouble to read, ponder and discuss the article in Time by Roger Boyes posted verbatim under the same article by Thanos. Indeed, there are disasters and there are disasters and the ones that are less visible are often the most lethal. They show up later when it is too late to remedy the cover-up. Pity.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-25 11:38:32
Here is the full article from Time magazine: Commentary: it is time the Finns looked hard and close at their kids Roger Boyes The youth of Finland seems to be living on a short fuse. Only ten months after the Jokela school shooting — eight dead that time — there is again blood in the corridors and classrooms of a college in this apparently placid and consensus-loving country. Early indications are that the latest assault was a bid for similar global notoriety. The Jokela slaughter last November stunned Finland and placed the killer, Pekka-Erik Auvinen, on the growing roster of desperate male teenagers ready to release their frustrations with a gun. Like Jokela, the latest shooter carefully planned the attack: from the timing, soon after the start of the academic year, to the YouTube manifesto, it was an act of theatre. Auvinen’s YouTube message was a rambling Nietzschean tirade together with some clumsy attempts to demonstrate his shooting skills. No matter — before it was taken down it was viewed by thousands. Something similar happened in the case of the Kauhajoki killer. Sad to say, he had been motivated by no more than a desire for internet celebrity.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-25 11:45:53
(continued from above) School massacres feed off each other, and plainly the youth who blasted his schoolmates learned from Auvinen; Auvinen in turn had been in touch with a would-be American shooter. Yet at the risk of howls of displeasure from Finnish readers — who raged at my commentary on Jokela — it has to be said that there is something disturbing going on in their proud, self-regulating Nordic culture. After not one, but two massacres in a year, it is time that the Finns looked hard and close at their children. After Jokela — an average school in Tuusala, an average dormitory suburb of the Finnish capital — my argument was that the Finns were letting down their young generation, allowing them to slip into a kind of psychological isolation. In small-town Finland — with nothing much to do except hang around in cliques forged in school, with the days shortening, with parents absent and the geographical distance between the homes of classmates unusually long — traditional friendship was slipping away and being replaced by social networking sites. Although all Finnish schools have psychiatrists, they are overworked. Teachers geared to ensuring exam results are failing to spot depression. And in a society with a hunting tradition, guns are readilly available. Well, young Finnish readers deemed this to be a parade of stereotypes. There was, they said, nothing specifically Finnish about the Jokela tragedy. If anything it was an American import, or a disease easily spread by the internet and video-game makers.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-25 11:47:23
(continued from above) In short, there was nothing much to be done — apart from mourn the pupils and teachers caught in the sights of a mentally deranged killer. Now, it has happened again. Time, surely, for the Finns to ask themselves a few questions. Or would that be unpatriotic, un-Finnish, rocking the boat? After Jokela, I was invited to a Finnish school to help to dispose of my prejudices. Situated on the outskirts of Helsinki, it was indeed an impressive place. Great effort was being invested in integrating immigrants, helping them to come up to scratch in Finnish. The reason why Finnish schools always do so well in international school league tables is that they try so hard to bring up class averages. Nobody is left behind. In one class a very bright Russian immigrant teased his native-born Finnish ice-hockey obsessed mate and declared: “Jokela couldn’t happen here — he would have talked over his problems with friends.”


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-25 11:48:17
(continued from above) But later I visited a special, almost quarantined, part of the school, a block that sought to bring drop-outs back into the system. It was well intentioned. The teenagers were given free breakfasts and fresh coffee to get them out of bed. They had classes when they wanted but mainly played cards and listened to music. They were plainly an embarrassment to many teachers, part of a government scheme that had been hatched before Jokela. The truth is that they were there to improve the statistics of the education system. The kids, nice but withdrawn, needed a different kind of help. Other children in school regarded them as freaks. No, they betrayed no signs of latent violence: they were not reaching for their guns. But they had been set aside by a society still striving for a kind of perfection, a social democratic utopia. The Jokela killer was not spotted because, said his class teacher, he got good marks; interest in him stopped at that point. Perhaps the Kauhajoli killer was also being earmarked by the teachers in his catering college as a promising restaurant manager.


AP	2008-09-25 14:41:47
Sand: "the characterization of "loser" as a proper explanation of someone who uses extreme violence to solve a problem is pretty shallow and not particularly useful psychologically" Well, I wasn't the one introducing it, was I? On the contrary, I was trying to understand it... "although the police seem to have had an opportunity to catch this one and failed. Something should be done about that" I agree. "It seems the only options are to either ignore a potential tragedy or to throw someone potentially criminal into jail." They are not. They could apprehend the gun(s) and could have been specially careful with the boy, watching him closely for a while. I know it is easy to say now "they could have", but in fact such cases are studied, copycats are common and it's true anyway. "Should society in general become more paranoid in the direction of the USA" Personally, I don't defend that, or a "big brother" society. There are important educational and health measures which could be taken first.


Sand	2008-09-25 16:15:09
You and I are a bit rough around the edges, AP, but we're somewhat aimed in the same direction. Wat you are demanding of Finland is a restrictive gun control situation and perhaps the Freudian aspects are against you. I dislike guns intensely and only shot one in the army for record well over half a century ago and never found them necessary to bolster my self appraisal. I have too much fun inventing new kinds of chocolate cake. But I do think you are much too hard on Finns who, as nations go, don't do badly at all. Psychological problems are very complex and expensive to fool with and when one results in death it's pretty horrible. But the USA uses jails to house its psychologically afflicted and just yesterday killed one poor raving guy with a taser. It's a tough call.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-25 17:11:28
If I may interlope in this "decent conversation," I think that you Ms. Pereira have hinted at something that bears discussion and follow-up: that Utopias may be useful as social ideals but do not exist anywere on earth. To wit Plato's Siracuse experience. Now, you need to take the next step and ask yourself this cogent question: what happens in a society where the very concept of utopia is degraded to the point that it is understood only as taking care of creature material comforts, efficient rational ordering, production and consumption? The investigation of that question may show us the light out of the cave, make us begin to suspect that the Enlightenment has still to enlighten itself, and begin to imagine way to remedy the sad situation we'are in; what Kierkegaard called despair that does not even recognize itself.


Sand	2008-09-25 17:39:52
I don't know how AP feels about this but for me, Paparella, no, you may not interlope.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-25 19:27:03
Obviously freedom of speech in a public forum is beyond your comprehension. Indeed, some ignorance is invincible.


Sand	2008-09-25 20:07:43
If it were speech you were dispensing I might pay attention but it seems all you want is to dump pseudo-philosophical turds, which you are perfectly free to do and I am perfectly free to ignore them.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-25 22:22:07
Had you done just that from the beginning you'd be all the wiser but it appears that those voices in your head have you in their power and will not even let you alone to play with yourself. You need to find a way to ignore them.


AP	2008-09-26 00:41:29
"perhaps the Freudian aspects are against you" ?? I don't understand ?? I'm not even a Freudian, and dislike much of he's nonsense, including phallic symbols nonsense. "But I do think you are much too hard on Finns who, as nations go, don't do badly at all." And they don't do badly alone in the world? They don't do badly thanks to anyone else? They don't do badly because they have specific qualities which make them special and different from the way how most other "nations go"? Not really. Because they take advantage of global markets and advertise themselves very well(?). "Psychological problems are very complex and expensive to fool with and when one results in death it's pretty horrible. But the USA uses jails to house its psychologically afflicted" Sand, we're talking here about psychopaths and sociopaths and those conditions have NO known treatment! Common (or most of the) "psychologically afflicted" people are usually not dangerous for the society, or very hardly so. It is very well known by all the specialists that the number of sociopaths in western societies has been consistently increasing. Why? We cannot know, just speculate. But we have some politically incorrect clues, of course.


AP	2008-09-26 00:42:44
"his nonsense"


AP	2008-09-26 01:23:02
Mr. P., I really can't see what you have against Andy Warhol. It's not a reasonable dislike. Just because we was a homosexual with a wig, changed his name slightly and in spite of his roots didn't conform to catholic ideologies? humm... His "15 minutes of fame" quote is deeply out of context the way you put it.


AP	2008-09-26 02:47:03
ps - can I call you "Mr. Little Duck" from now on? birds of a feather... I see.


Sand	2008-09-26 04:06:33
Aaah Mr.P., If you were not so troubled over naked emperors standing on the shoulders of giants grinding axes and re-inventing the wheel maybe you too would hear a voice or too in your head of simple reason instead of churning out parsecs of historical references with no relevance to anything under discussion. Wailing about not being permitted to speak, whining about being persecuted by imaginary bullies, you poor shell of a man lost in the wilds of Platonic abstractions throwing mysterious shadows on cave walls you are in a sad state indeed.


Hank W.	2008-09-26 11:32:42
This copycat killing was inspired by an internet phenomenon. But what you should look at is what else you have. And its got nothing to do with Finland. You have churchburnings, toppling of gravestones, suicide clubs and whatnot. The teenagers in all western countries are troubled. So stop whining about Finland and whine for the globe. The school shootings are now "in fashion" hopefully the teens will move on to something else.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-26 12:56:29
Those about Warhol's sexual orientation are your gratuitous insinuations Ms. AP not mine, revealing an unreasonable animus against the Catholic Church. As I advise my students of philosophy, before one rejects anything one ought to take the trouble to know as much as possible about what one is rejecting, good as well as good, warts and all, and not attack out of ignorance and bias, and moreover whatever can be gratuitously and superficailly stated or even insinuated can just as easily be ignored and refuted; in fact, it cannot be very serious and important. Indeed, to have to resort to name calling on one's names is usually a sign of juvenile intellectual immaturity and desperation. You probably can do better than join Mr. S and Hank W. in this forum, at least I hope so. P.S. By the way, the expression birds of a feather come together has nothing to do with birds just as putting lipstick on a pig has nothing to do with pigs. They are metaphors and idiomatic expressions meant ironically. Only a four year old who cannot conceive of irony will take them literally.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-26 13:00:51
P.S. As far as "the 15 minute of fame" comment of Warhol is concerned, try placing it in the context of the 15 minute U-2 videos left by those students our to kill other students, and perhaps you'll be able to imagine what I was driving at.


AP	2008-09-26 16:08:11
"to have to resort to name calling on one's names is usually a sign of juvenile intellectual immaturity and desperation" Name calling??!!! I merely translated the name "Paparella" from italian to english ("Little Duck"), and I've done an analogy with your constant accusation to others according to which they are "birds of a feather who flock together"!!! Ducks indeed reveal some of the strongest "flocking together" tendencies among the big family of birds - this is true and common sense!! That's why I used them in Art for the End of the World, flocking together (just because of that, of course). Oh, a flock can also be defined as "a group of Christians who worship together", Ugly Duckling was also "little" and this reminds me of your self-victimization strategies too. Many things to analyse here, uh? "the expression birds of a feather come together has nothing to do with birds just as putting lipstick on a pig has nothing to do with pigs" Really? Thank you for your precious teachings, Professor P. I don't know what I would do without them. That doesn't mean one can't play with their literal connotations and see their irony, I hope? "Only a four year old who cannot conceive of irony will take them literally" Or someone who actually CAN conceive of irony! "Those about Warhol's sexual orientation are your gratuitous insinuations Ms. AP not mine" Really? I remember you not even liking the humour and condemning the clothes of a transvestite just because he... performed and did stand-up as a transvestite. So it doesn't surprise me that you dislike Andy's wig. "try placing it in the context of the 15 minute U-2 videos left by those students our to kill other students" What for? Just to denigrate Warhol gratuitously? And it's not U-2, it's Youtube.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-26 17:52:07
I thought so...!


AP	2008-09-26 19:54:02
It's not such a great pun, Mr. P.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-26 21:20:25
Some relevant Stoic wisdom: "If somebody is vain, this means he thinks he knows better than somebody else, he is better than somebody else, he wants the attention of people, he wants to occupy the center of the stage. What does he accomplish there? What is the obstacle? Anybody can be loud and, let me say, display poor manners. All it requires is to have an impulse to do it and follow it through. There is no obstacle to poor manners if you wish to display them. And if then you are proud because you have called attention to yourself, that's not pride. That's vanity. You call it pride, perhaps, but it is vanity." (Manage Your Fears Manage Your Anger, p. 198). © 1995 by Phyllis Low Berning and Marilyn Low Schmitt The Wisdom of Dr. Low is compiled by Cliff Brown and edited by Marilyn Low Schmitt


Sand	2008-09-26 21:24:18
Good advice, Paparella. Too bad you have no intent to take it to heart.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-26 21:54:34
Jung would call that "projection" Ms. Pereira; or, to continue the Punch and Judy show, can I call you "Pear tree"? What is the saying: the fruit never falls to far from the tree: they flock together by the tree.


Sand	2008-09-26 22:01:51
No. The saying is "Never trust a fruit because they're all flocked up" Or maybe "Burps of a father make stormy weather". Or something like that.


AP	2008-09-26 22:59:03
"Jung would call that "projection" Ms. Pereira" Not only Jung, the whole crowd :P Be proud that you would gather consensual opinions coming from all the sides about this, Mr. P. "can I call you "Pear tree"" Miss Doctor Pear tree, please. Sure: trees are a symbol of wisdom and pears are SO damned honey SWEET!! Or then you can just call me "that former jew who changed her name so she could hide better". It's equally appreciatory, don't you think? "What is the saying: the fruit never falls to far from the tree: they flock together by the tree." Don't ask me what is the saying, I don't nurse the habit of identifying other people with sayings about... my own last name!! Wait, wait... light is coming to my mind... "fly, fly, little duck/ the tree is solid/ you cluck for a buck"??!


AP	2008-09-26 23:26:40
ps - Jung is my hero, even because he loved völkisch too!!


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-26 23:34:57
Are we competing with Sarah Pelin Ms. Doctor Pereira, under some kind of influence? One wonders.


AP	2008-09-26 23:51:53
"Sarah Pelin"? Yes, I always craved for competing with brainless conservative environment-attack-friendly abortion-prohibition-enthusiastic elk-shooting-in-high-heels hate-lover dolls. Ever since I was a little girl! (I have some transvestite tendencies, you see...?)


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-27 00:10:47
Indeed, we need to remember that every coin has two sides and all one needs to do is turn to the other side to understand its opposite better. Extremism begets extremism of the other side and so does activism. The ancient Greeks were wiser by far: they counseled harmony and believed that virtue is in the middle, not at either of the extremes.


AP	2008-09-27 00:24:49
And realism begets what? Advices to turn and see and understand Mrs. Palin side??!! You don't need to tell me about the virtues of the middle, where I'm from people believe in those like extremists!!


Sand	2008-09-27 02:27:01
Paparella strikes again With quotes from ancient Greece. Like a crazy clucking hen, Will his madness never cease? His so-called wisdom, old and cracked Is supposed to be unbeatable. But even slight analysis Reveals his mind's paralysis With his arguments defeatable.


Hank W.	2008-09-27 11:34:22
Papaerella, you can take the other retard Boyes as your catamite. Really, you must get a love child.


Hank W.	2008-09-27 11:38:19
I am still a bit surprised over what all the frothing over "internet" as the source of copycats is. Really, do the people think that the internet is the source of all evil? The source of all Evil is Goethe and German literature. After all, there were dozens of men with a bad fashion sense dressed in yellow trousers and purple tailcoat shooting themselves in a spree after the publication of "The Sorrows of Young Werther". It all fits into a similar pattern.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-27 12:41:51
"Now you have heard everything, and why I must return to my solitude. I have kept nothing back from you, my friends. And you have heard, too, who is the most silent of men--and intends to remain so! Ah, my friends! I should have something more to tell you, I should have something more to give you! Why do I not give it? Am I then mean?" --Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, "The Stillest Hour" To all the birds of a feather: indeed, the mad and the voices in their head can make all sorts of noise and even utter the most astonishing remarks. But they ultimately make no sense. They lack recognizable or common meaning and the consistency demanded of ordinary logic; or worse, they strike listeners and observers as fantastic and absurd, having no bearing to a shared reality or set of common values. If silence poses a breakdown in genuine communication, madness indicates an absence of or disrespect for any serious aspect of it.


Sand	2008-09-27 13:16:43
Mr.P would make us see His word to be affirming His thinking really is quite neat. Instead, it leaves us squirming. He would show us birds in flock With bird-brained opposition. Instead we each find, in shock, His paltry mind's condition. His lack of logic and perception Makes us feel ashamed. This documented PhD Seems mentally much maimed. He scrambles, in defensive mode, With props of wild deception. So silence on his part would be Met with glad reception.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-27 13:56:11
Rationalists: …intellectualize the potential of reason in the face of faith in the presence of wonder and raise obstructions to barricade themselves short of the fully spiritual and work set limits to the bone without the consolation of the limitless the boundless the fathomless and like jalapenos strung out in the sun run their Spirit dry and mistake the hot and the spicy for the zest of life with burning conviction …sweet in the delusion!


Sand	2008-09-27 14:35:09
Faith, we must all admit Lacks solid confirmation Of any reason, not a bit. It's merely contemplation. But idle thought necessitates A grounding in sensation To make its values, prove its worth It needs sure validation. Fools, of course, can sail along On froth and fairy tales. But actuality demands Proof, while dogma fails. The world is hard I must admit. It punishes the fools Who eagerly dream silly dreams While disregarding tools That bite into reality And follow useful rules.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-27 15:07:53
The world is charged with the grandeur of God. It will flame out, like shining from shook foil; It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod? Generations have trod, have trod, have trod; And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil; And wears man's smudge and shares man's smell: the soil Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod. And for all this, nature is never spent; There lives the dearest freshness deep down things; And though the last lights off the black West went Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs— Because the Holy Ghost over the bent World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings. --Gerard Manley Hopkins


Sand	2008-09-27 15:17:42
I knew you never had it in you to answer me in kind yourself so had to run to daddy for words. Anyway, you picked a decent poet, brainwashed as he might have been. I've got cleaning and baking to do so you'll have to bide your time to be further demolished. Don't bite your nails. I'll be back.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-27 18:15:19
There is nothing holy nor sacred to those who have abandoned God and reason in order to follow their perverse desires. - François Rabelais


Sand	2008-09-27 19:15:20
You see, Paparella! You don't have confidence in yourself to tell me I am not sacred, you have to have Rabelais do it. Is it because, deep down, you don't really believe it and have to call out a big guy to metaphorically whack me over the head because you are too weak to do it yourself? Of course, holy and sacred, to put it succinctly, are shithead labels meaning nothing significant at all. They just are verbal weapons to scare the poor dupes who swallow that kind of nonsense. They don't work on me because I have never abandoned either God or Zeus or any of those other imaginary boogy men. They just never existed for me. Your general approval of submission to childish fantasy makes me wonder which ones you have abandoned.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-27 19:53:36
Shithead labels? Ah, the by now familiar poetics of defecation! I suppose people deal with what they are most comfortable with according to their character. Let's hope that such poetics are not part of the labels on your psychedelic cakes with bullet holes. Food for thought!


Sand	2008-09-27 20:18:25
For a man who prides himself on the value of words why do you continuously play the phony juvenile stuffed shirt game of being shocked at my language? Queen Victoria died well over a century ago and you make believe you are aghast at my language. You grew up in the Italian section of Manhattan and my language would shock no one who spent his youth there. What is this stupid phony play acting supposed to accomplish? Is there any point is making believe you are shocked!, shocked! at a bit of common street language? Why bother to post the same idiocy over and over and over again as if it made a discussion progress in any way. A man of your age should have at least a bit of maturity. Shame on you!


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-27 22:24:39
It is not your language I am shocked at but your cultural philistinism.


Sand	2008-09-28 02:08:32
Perhaps I could counter that I am appalled at your almost total inability to comprehend the true value of culture and how and why it is created. You are so disgustingly smug in your irretrievably self admiration that your grasp of real values is totally lacking. I find it amusing that you profess a deep love of words but your repetitive offering of cliches in response to my arguments is a sure indication of very negligible capability in that direction. Where is your originality and skill? Non-existent. You reply to my words only with the thoughts and words of others in your standard dull repertoire.


Sand	2008-09-28 03:02:06
It’s better if I am more direct in my total horror of what you are, Paparella. This life is extremely short and it is up to each one of us to at least attempt to experience each instant to its fullest for we will never have another chance at it again. It is an astounding experience full of delight and fright and if we are to make proper use of it we must permit ourselves to be torn in all sorts of ways which can be both dangerous and dirty. But if we are any kind of a human being we must embrace all of it to the fullest with all its shit and blood and fucking and hate and love. For shit is where food comes from and fucking is where people come from and our bodies are full of slime and acid and billions upon billions of non-human life which we need to keep alive. Seeing this and accepting it is what you call philistinism. You are a Helen Hokinson man who is totally puzzled by the power and the glory of a Jackson Pollock hurricane of color and line and can only accept it if you can spot a bunny lurking somewhere in its stormy swirls. You are the epitome of a suppressed faithful Catholic totally unaware that Plato and Christ and Einstein were living animals at one time full of appetites and piss and the most conflicting confusions as are the best of us. You see art and culture through a fixed mask of plastered on awe and have not the slightest idea of how the so called masterpieces are pulled out of tortured minds and troubled struggles. I do not think I have or can create any so called masterpieces but I have and still do enter into the conflicts where they are born and I know some of the problems. You, Paparella, are a glued together collage of old borrowed scraps of so called respectable cultural set pieces carefully covering the horrifying emptiness which is at your center. You are the hollow man that Eliot spoke about and your life is in that scrap of sheepskin that certifies that an institution recognizes you spent endless hours chopping out quotations from a library to receive their rubber stamp. But you are not a living human being, Paparella. You are a nothing and a very nasty nothing at that.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-28 03:49:49
Is that what the voices in your head told you? Don't believe them; they are liars and slanderers.


Sand	2008-09-28 04:50:12
Predictably a nothing retort.


Hank W.	2008-09-28 06:40:23
Really Sand, regarding Emanuel Paparella, I strongly doubt it would produce anything peculiarily different anywhere. The whole entity produces such an amout of shit the pigs at the farm are jealous. Maybe by 2010 he'll be a green methane factory.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-28 07:10:55
Indeed, deja vu in little quiet Finland where birds of a feather flock together as it is to be expected. For shame and no great honor to their country!


Hank W.	2008-09-28 13:14:49
Atleast ist is a country we can call our own, unlike you parasite.


Emanuel Paparella	2008-09-28 14:23:15
Indeed, scoundrels of a feather always flock together; they transcend even time and space and they are no honor to any country where they may happen to have been born.


AP	2008-09-28 15:21:29
"You are a Helen Hokinson man who is totally puzzled by the power and the glory of a Jackson Pollock hurricane of color and line and can only accept it if you can spot a bunny lurking somewhere in its stormy swirls." Good metaphor!! :P :P "At least ist is a country we can call our own, unlike you parasite." And that's very important, to be able to call "your own" (and no one else's!!!) to a piece of land, because pieces of land are something we lack in this world. That and foolish xenophobes!! :P :P I think that parasites born in Finland could be offended by your remark, and maybe claim the country to be their own (and just their own!!). :P


Hank W.	2008-09-28 21:14:55
We surely don't lack whining foreigners who excuse their own stupidity by calling intelligent people xenophobes.


AP	2008-09-28 23:51:57
Of course, the stupidity is exclusive of the foreigners, isn't it? I don't think they need to excuse anything, your sentences are PRETTY OBVIOUS and SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES!!!


AP	2008-09-29 23:34:18
"calling intelligent people xenophobes" You're actually lucky that I called you a xenophobe, not a total racist! :P And I am GLAD that not all Finns are like you!! :P


Hank W.	2008-09-30 07:24:18
The less stupid foreigners usually pack up and leave as they figure out they are not worshipped here, the really dumb ones stay here and whine.


AP	2008-09-30 15:30:46
"The less stupid foreigners usually pack up and leave as they figure out they are not worshipped here, the really dumb ones stay here and whine." You see, that's an EPIC pair of sentences!! I speak for myself, Hank W., every time I thought about immigrating somewhere, it was certainly because I felt I needed decent worship to be expressed from everyone towards me somewhere else. Just to change sceneries a bit you know? But the main intention was always to be worshipped, I confess. I believe most immigrants (and non-immigrants) would agree with me on this? If every foreigner would be intelligent by following your intelligence criteria, Hank W., then they would all keep like that - out of your native country (which shouldn't be blamed for the fact that you were born there) and as total foreigners.