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Some Musings on Aristotle's "The Poetics" Some Musings on Aristotle's "The Poetics"
by Prof.Emanuel L. Paparella
2008-10-14 09:46:27
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“Poetic requirements make a plausible impossibility preferable to an implausible possibility” (Aristotle in The Poetics)

The first philosopher to attempt a definition of art is Plato. In The Republic via Socrates and his interlocutor Glaucon he defines it as imitation, or better, as representation. Despite the fact that his own writing style at times approaches the poetical, he remains deeply suspicious of the arts in general because, in his view, they appeal to the emotions rather than to the intellect, they are an imitation of things which themselves are imitation of the Forms, hence three times removed from the real.

Aristotle, on the other hand, while sharing his teacher’s conception of art as representation, remains well disposed toward the arts and toward tragic drama in particular. In his The Poetics Aristotle defines art as a cognitive human enterprise, what much later will be branded as the aesthetic sensibility by Immanuel Kant. Rather than competing with philosophy in the business of truth telling, art works in tandem with it. A well constructed tragedy is as suited to convey truths about human nature as is a philosophical treatise. The bulk of The Poetics, in fact, is a sustained and thorough examination of tragic drama, one of ancient Greece’s most highly developed art forms. 

Unfortunately, Aristotle’s writing lack Plato’s mastery of literary forms; at times they appear incomplete as if derived from notebooks and lecture notes. Nevertheless, even today any study of Aesthetics will usually begin with Plato and Aristotle’s definition of the Arts and their conception of what is Beauty. They have exerted an enormous influence on the art world and they continue to do so.

As already mentioned, Aristotle sees all art, including music, dance, literature, painting, and sculpture as representational. However, what poetry represents, is not the actual world as it is but things as they might be or could be. This conception takes us into the realm of the ethical and the freedom which is integral part of being human. For Aristotle the possible is the domain of art and marks an important characteristic of his aesthetic theory, one that contributes to his positive assessment of the value of art.

Aristotle claims that we find art pleasurable in virtue of its representational character. Because we learn from artistic representation, we can enjoy an artwork whose content would repel us if it were real. Think, for example, of Oedipus returning to the stage after having gauged out his eyes for real. Although we would be repulsed by such a sight were it real, when we experience it in Sophocles’ masterpiece we learn from the dramatic representation of Oedipus’s fate and take pleasure in it. It is this emphasis on art’s ability to teach that makes Aristotle’s theory of art a cognitive one.

This tendency, evident everywhere in Aristotle’s philosophy, to classify related phenomena as species of a single genus reflects his training as a biologist. This accounts for his stress in The Poetics on how the arts differ according to their media, objects, and manner or representation. It is these that differentiate types of art from one another.

The form analyzed in greatest detail by Aristotle is tragic drama. For Aristotle, tragedy represents serious action in dramatic form. Its purpose is to bring about a catharsis, a purging of the emotions, through the experience of fear and pity. Aristotle duly expands on each element of this definition. He ranks certain types of tragedy above others because they more fully instantiate tragedy’s essence. For example, he argues that it is better for a tragedy to concern someone with whom we can identify, thus neither markedly better nor markedly worse than most of us, who makes a mistake and suffers for it. Such tragedies best realize the art form’s function or essence, for a protagonist of that kind is more likely to induce emotional catharsis.

Finally, it ought to be mentioned that the form of philosophical argument Aristotle uses in his The Poetics is the teleological one. In ancient Greek, telos is the word for goal or purpose. A philosophic account is teleological if it points to some goal or purpose and then shows how the relevant phenomena achieves it. Thus, Aristotle’s conception of tragedy is teleological because he derives various claims about what tragedies should be like from his understanding of the art’s goal or purpose. In fact, one can say that most of the discussion of tragedy in The Poetics is a teleological assessment of classic Greek drama.

In many ancient amphitheaters in Greece and Southern Italy (the ancient Magna Graecia) ancient Greek drama is still being performed today. I have a nephew who is passionate about Greek drama; he travels around directing and staging it such a setting. He tells me that it is always enthusiastically received. Indeed, there must be some powerful reason why Greek drama has survived for two thousand years. Aristotle’s Poetics can enlighten those who wish to explore that reason. The cultural philistine who feels that the ancients have nothing to teach us children of the Enlightenment, will, on the other hand, consider Aristotle and Greek drama passé. Pity that the Enlightenment, in some of its aspects, has still to enlighten itself.


   
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Sand2008-10-14 10:42:40
The gross misconception that modern artists and poets view classic literature as worthless is the unfortunate narrow minded view of someone who is so cowed by tradition that he cannot appreciate that much has been discovered and utilized in concepts of modern creative artists that the ancients never approached.

All perception is extremely limited in several basic ways and one of the most outstanding mistakes of classic understanding of art is that it is founded in imitation. Our limited physiological perception permits each of us in subtle individual way to extract from incoming data only those particulars that each one of us finds significant. Art for each artist can only extract from experience what each of us is capable of perceiving and integrating into the whole of our unified viewpoint which may share many things with other people but is nevertheless a very individual perceptive parsing. What makes an artist’s work valuable is its ability to broaden the viewer’s viewpoint to contain at least some of the artist’s world and communicate that. The classic concept of imitation is almost totally off base in that it assumes we each perceive the world in exactly the same way. This is not only wrong between individuals, but also between cultures as that of the ancients is so different from contemporary culture that what was perceived in one way by people living then is seen totally differently today where the mores and standards vary tremendously.

Another basic error in the imitation concept is that a work of art is valid only insofar as it is true in some way to something other than itself. A huge amount of modern art is valid within the standards it sets for itself in its own context with no necessary relationship to anything outside itself. Music in particular is outstanding in this characteristic but the other arts share this quality as well.

In general art is a discipline which abstracts from reality certain qualities and then can either clarify reality by demonstrating viable relationships or play with entirely new relationships which can be fascinating but not have any relationship to reality at all. This is an essential function of art which the classical writers missed entirely.


Emanuel Paparella2008-10-14 12:09:10
Ah, a disquisition on Beauty. Didn't the ancient teach us something about that. You must have found something useful in the above or you would not have written the critique...yes? However it must be said that those who misguidedly and contemptuosly will not stand on the shoulders of giants will end up not only not being very original but re-inventing the wheel. For example, the most important insight of Aristotle, that art is cognitive and can express ideas like philosophy went right over your head. It is not even recognized. That is a mistake that Immanuel Kant, a relatively modern man vis a vis the ancients, surely never made when he practically laid the foundations for the modern aesthetic sensibility. Stay tuned and refrain from jumping on your horse sword in hand, for he is treated and compared in my next posting. But remember, that he said it first and you just re-invented the wheel...
Meanwhile you may have the last word, which I can practically guarantee will be forthcoming masked as an aerenic dispassionate treatise on the concept of Beauty and the poetic.


Sand2008-10-14 12:16:14
Right on, Paparella. You are too profoundly ignorant to know that art is not about beauty. And if you have so assiduously studied art all your life and not discovered that extremely fundamental fact about it you are evidently much too dense for me to confer any understanding on the matter to you.


Emanuel Paparella2008-10-14 12:18:54
P.S. "In general art is a discipline which abstracts from reality certain qualities and then can either clarify reality by demonstrating viable relationships or play with entirely new relationships which can be fascinating but not have any relationship to reality at all. This is an essential function of art which the classical writers missed entirely." (Sand)

Had you grasped in any way Plato's concept of ultimate reality (the forms) and Aristotle's concept of catharsis, even as sketched in the above contribution, you would not have uttered such a proposterous and ridiculous statement. Indeed, the struggle between the ancients and the moderns is a figment of exalted minds as was well pointed out by many Renaissance and Romantic philosophers, among whom Ficino and Kant.


Sand2008-10-14 12:29:10
Frankly, insofar as ultimate reality is concerned, to put it bluntly, Plato was almost as big an asshole as you and if you are too stupid to comprehend that the metaphor is only distantly related to defecation you are just about as dumb as I figured. Plato obviously confused human abstractive capability with reality but the guy is dead so he is beyond correction. You seem somewhat in the same mental condition so I suppose that makes you something of a zombie.


Sand2008-10-14 12:43:47
Incidentally, the conscious understanding and utilization of abstraction in the arts is an emergent phenomenon, in western culture, largely of the late 19th and early twentieth centuries so your authorities were largely ignorant of its scope. It seems you have a good deal to learn about art including fundamental principles.


Emanuel Paparella2008-10-14 12:48:12
A modest proposal: why don't we gather around a big fire and burn all the books of Aristotle and Plato and Kant. Socrates never wrote anything so we can foul-mouth him and call him an asshole and leave it at that. But wait a minute, didn't we modern "enlightened" men do just that on May 20 1942 in modern "civilized" Germany? Oh well, we can always reinvent the wheel.


Sand2008-10-14 12:59:13
Although Hitler is a convenient modern villain, it was, of course, the very Christian Savonarola who was so notorious for burning books, pantings, and other valuable cultural objects and from whom Hitler obvious learned a great deal.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola

One must correctly attribute Paparella's admiration to the proper source.


Emanuel Paparella2008-10-14 14:59:32
Is that what the visiting voices have told you lately? That Hitler has gotten a bad rap for his racism buttressed by a criminal agenda, and that the real villain is Savonarola and the Catholic Church? A much better argument for your obvious biased viewpoint would have been that of at least pretending to be scandalized at the fact that Savonarola himself ended up on a bonfire eventually. But that does not seem to bother you much. A knowledgeable fifth grader can tell you that actually the intellectual bully Hitler had a greater passion than that of burning books that disagreed with him, he liked burning people who disagreed with him and that he considered undesirable. In fact he burned some 11 million of them. Now, one can perhaps make a plausible connection between the burning of people and the burning of books in the sense that they are both indicative of a criminally scurrilous barbaric mind-set, but it is idiotic and indicative of a sheer lack of imagination to suggest that Hitler learned from Savonarola how to be a racist, an ideologue, a rationalist proud of his iron-clad logical arguments, and how to burn cultural artifacts and people too at the tune of 11 million of them. Yes, burning cultural artifacts is reprehensible no matter who does it; burning people after gassing them is much more grievous, it is corrupting and dehumanizing; but that kind of inference and nexus unable to grasp the quantitative and qualitative difference between what was done in medieval times and what was done in the 20th century by atheists states (still going on in the so called People’s Republic of China) is revealing of a complete lack of historical objectivity; anything will be proffered if it promotes the grinding of one’s particular ax; everybody else, even monsters such as Hitler, Stalin and Mao are off the hook. Pity!


Sand2008-10-14 15:07:40
But your passion,Mr.P., at least at the moment, is burning literature. Anything I indicate as worthy of analysis and criticism, seems. it appears, soiled by the inspection and therefore arouses your enthusiasm for tossing into the flames in the mode of Savonarola, one of your Catholic buddies. I have never in any way suggested tossing anything into a fire. That's your passion. And I am not defending either Hitler or Savonarola. You seem magnetized by them.


Sand2008-10-14 16:05:34
For the entire duration of our conversations, Paparella, you have found it pertinent to arouse inappropriate emotional hatred by inserting the frightful behavior of the Stalin and Hitler dictatorships as if their prime targets were the religious beliefs if the people they attacked and as if their behavior was guided by reason and logical behavior. I have never come across anybody so fiercely intent on pasting the atheist label on these oppressive regimes as if atheism was their prime guiding motivation. You proclaim yourself a historian yet you refuse to acknowledge that raw power was the motivation behind these political monsters and it was exerted not specifically upon religious organizations but on any organized force, religious or otherwise, that would oppose their rule. Franco’s rule in Spain was equally brutal and he always was in excellent relationship with the Catholic Church and Hitler and many of his followers never declared themselves free of their religion and frequently announced their Catholicism.
In Russia the fight against religion was motivated by the alliance of the Russian religious leaders with the oppressive policies of the czar and the wealthy classes.
There is no disputing these generally accepted facts. Admittedly the Stalinist regime fixed on religion but it was not simply out of atheist persuasion but as a political control. To identify atheism in general with the vicious Stalinist and Maoist regimes is more than unjust. It is plain obvious smear.
But your constant hysterical reaction to my criticism of your favored philosophers by declaiming that it is I who would destroy their words through pyromaniacal censorship is significant in that you would steer examination of their works away from analysis into rabble-rousing emotionalism. You cannot or will not refute my dismissal of their theories by any cogent reasoning but merely quail before their historical reputations and expect the same of me. Sorry. Nobody is immune to sensible criticism and your attempts to indicate I am insane for doing so reflects more on you than me.



Emanuel Paparella2008-10-14 17:09:42
If you read the first comment under the lead article of today you will see a critique of Plato's position on poetry which only somebody blinded by bias can miss; in fact had you bothered to read with a modicum of care and reflection my various contributions (which you promptly and irrationally attack no matter what the issue might be) with a fair and honest dialogue as a goal rather than a diatribe for the Punch and July show, you would have long realized that the vast majority of them are in the mode of a critical appraisal. Obviously it was all missed on you. Too bad.


Emanuel Paparella2008-10-14 19:00:33
P.S. I will freely grant that any atheist or agnostic can live an ethical and even an exemplary life under the light of reason, as Socrates and Kant has well taught us with their ethical systems (albeit the latter was and always remained was a Christian), I will also grant that many Christians give bad example and are a travesty of what it means to be a Christian, but what I will not grant is that the likes of Stalin and Mao and their cohorts of materialists and utilitarians, and positivists and rationalists devoid an ethical system who think themselves enlightened and look with contempt to those who live their faith and a belief in the Good, the True and the Beautiful, without rejecting reason (as Aquinas has also taught us), to misguidedly substitute ideological fanaticism for religion and then proclaim to the world that what they have set up is the most functional, the best of all possible societies, heaven itself on earth. Far from setting up the workers’ paradise Stalin’s society was a living hell, as well predicted by a prophet such as Dostoyevsky in his novel The Possessed.


Sand2008-10-14 19:03:32
I appreciate, Paparella, the almost unique civil tone of your latest comment. Despite the fury I have exhibited in our past interchanges (which is not without grounds), your frequent expression of awe at ancient opinions merely because they were so highly regarded in the past but which seemed to me to be quite vulnerable to cogent criticism within current cultural considerations smacked, to me, of irrational complaisance to conventional undeserved reverence. Since you were not particularly explicit in your characterization of the ancient viewpoints and complained that they lacked appreciation in this modern era I went on the assumption that you swallowed them whole. In my first comment I indicated that you were incorrect in your indication that there was no appreciation in modern times for the ancient dramas but I extended my criticism to point out that the arts of those times had a quite limited spectrum of materials and approaches in comparison to current works and, in particular, that concepts of reality have changed radically, a point which is primal and to which you seemed to object to strenuously.

Hopefully, we might continue on a more civil level although when pushed I might find that the strength of language demanded could possible offend your most Puritan sensibilities.


Sand2008-10-14 19:14:44
In no way am I subject to the self adulations of the totalitarian regimes but it should be noted that many of the regimes of the west under capitalist economics have imposed hardships similar to the Hitler and Stalin regimes. The history of the USA in regard to the Native Americans and the black citizens originally imported as slaves and maintained in poverty and frightful suppression even into the first half of the last century and the history of Belgium and several other large western countries is nothing to be proud of. The world still suffers greatly from what humans do to each other with and without religious motivation and frankly, I cannot see how it might end well.


Emanuel Paparella2008-10-14 20:11:06
If we live in deterministic world where "things are what they are" necessarely and there is nothing that Man, who is also a victim of determinism, can do, then I too don't see what can be done about it; it's all downhill. On the other hand, if Man remains free to choose his destiny and envision things not as they are but as they ought to be or could be, if indeed the poetical and the artistic represents that reality of human nature, not the actual world as it is but things as they might be or could be, then I dare say, there is some hope and we can keep Charles Manson in jail because despite that he believes he too was free and responsible for his destiny. As the above article makes attempts to show, for Aristotle the possible is the domain of art marking an important characteristic of his aesthetic theory, one that contributes to his more positive assessment of the value of art as compared to Plato's. Indeed, the lenses one wears color the kind of world one sees and the kind of world one envisions. One can stand on the side of hope or on the side of cynicism. One must dare to choose, if for no other reason than not to choose is already a choice.



Sand2008-10-14 20:36:40
Ah well, here we go again. I've been through this a lot.

Just how does one choose? Is one a free floating object with no experience, no prejudices, no sense of consequences. Are all choices so equal that one can foresee nothing that past experience would say one choice is better than another? Does each human make choices at random or because training or experience or expectation indicates that the better outcome comes from one rather than another? Where does freedom lie? Who wants freedom if conforming to expectations is the better condition?


Sand2008-10-14 20:56:09
To pursue the artistic points, art is an exploration as is any creative endeavor. But art today explores much more than human interrelationships. It pursues all sorts of relationships on fundamental perceptive levels. One of the mistakes that people make is in seeing mathematics as a science. It is not. It is the exploration of patterns. I bring this up because art is very like mathematics. It explores relationships whether they exist in what is termed the real world or not. Jackson Pollock, Piet Mondrian, Kurt Schwitters, Braque, Picasso, Paul Klee, Willem De Kooning, Mark Rothko, Ad Reinhardt, Franz Kline, Ben Nicholson, Fritz Hundertwasser, Sam Francis, etc.,etc., deal not in what is the so-called possible but in how and what you see and their works do not imitate or represent anything but themselves. They are objects in themselves.


Sand2008-10-15 06:24:17
It is worthwhile to examine several points in the article as they contain conceptual errors that are important. Assuming the article is accurate as to Plato’s understanding of poetry he is obviously wrong in separating emotions from the intellect as the two are so intimately entwined that no separation is sensibly possible. There is a brief reference to the Forms which is an assumption that Plato makes on the nature of reality. Plato assumes that the abstractions that the mind makes in collating and ordering physiological input data is reality and the original data is some sort of illusion. There is no truth to this whatsoever. The Platonic forms are the generalities the mind makes to filter and sort a welter of impressions transmitted by the nervous system and are merely a way that the human nervous system can manage and store and retrieve the data in a useful way but different nervous systems would do this process in a different way and even individual human nervous systems differ in such a way that agreement on many of these abstractions is frequently difficult or impossible. Nevertheless sufficient agreement exists to make some sort of common classification both useful and necessary.There is stated that one must be acquainted with aesthetics to comprehend the nature of beauty. Since standards for beauty are extremely variable over different cultural spectrums, different times and most certainly over individual tastes and perspectives, it is highly unlikely that one ancient culture can set standards that will evoke the individual emotion to appreciate a phenomenon or object for all times and cultures.There is no question that a good deal of art is concerned with symbolism but it is a terrible error, especially with the advent of abstract art in current times, to assume that all art is symbolic. Each artistic division – painting, sculpture, dance, the stage, film, etc. has its symbolic utilization and exploration with the materials of its craft but these materials themselves with the skills required to manipulate them are frequently employed for the enjoyment of their skillful interaction with little or no symbolism whatsoever. This is especially true in the graphic and sculptural arts where a huge number of creations refer only to themselves. An amusing example of this is Magritte’s painting “Ceci n’est pas une pipe” (This is not a pipe) which is a simple painting of a tobacco pipe. It is obviously a painting, and not a pipe and it clearly says so. This piece of artistic humor was carried one step further by another artist who duplicated the pipe painting and called it “Ceci n’est pas une Magritte” (This is not a Magritte).The Aristotelian claim that, in the example presented, that Oedipus’ gouged out eyes is somehow sanitized because it is in dramatic form is directly counter to the dramatic experience required. It is a commonly accepted perception that when one attends a theater to watch a drama there is a suspension of disbelief. Obviously it is a false situation that the audience is watching real people undergoing real events but the more that feeling can be suppressed and the larger the acceptance that reality is being portrayed, the more effective the drama will be. The horror of Oedipus’ self-mutilation is effective and powerful because it is accepted as reality. When that self delusion is broken by comedy, such as if Oedipus popped out his eyeballs and started juggling them while humming a happy tune, the extreme break from tragedy to comedy would expend the tension in laughter.The concept that experiencing theatrical horror induces catharsis is extremely doubtful. It is much more likely that undergoing portrayals of brutality and cruelty inspires that behavior in a suggestible audience. This is well understood by the public that regularly objects to open brutality in films and video games that inures audiences to viciousness and inspires imitation.The off handed slap at audiences brought up in a culture of perception and reason is insulting in its intimation that such people are incapable of appreciating cultures and values other than their own.


Emanuel Paparella2008-10-15 09:18:07
Some further musings. Cocteau’s blurring of comedy and tragedy is undoubtedly modern, so is the insistence that art is not necessarily symbolical, is not concerned with beauty and the aesthetic (whether it be universal or particular merely in the eyes of the beholder in our relativistic times) and does not necessarily point to anything beyond itself. That is why I also insist that the jury is still out on modern art. That is so exactly because the idea that art as an end in itself pointing to nothing beyond itself may well mean that within the modern, or better, the post-modern sensibility there is indeed nothing to point to except the chaos and meaninglessness of nihilism. If post-modern art points to nihilism, then it remains symbolical whether it acknowledges it or not and Plato has a point when, with Magritte, he says that the chair in the painting is not a chair, but unlike Magritte he also says that the chair itself is not the ultimate reality but only an appearance in the cave lit by fire in which both Plato and Magritte find themselves, that ultimate reality resides in the “form” of the chair which is outside the cave, and therefore that sort of trickery by the poet and the artist, twice removed from reality, ought to be banned from the Republic. Which does not mean I agree with Plato, it just means that Plato, misguided or not, was not an idiot and was well aware of the problem of art’s symbolism just as Magritte was. (continued below).


Emanuel Paparella2008-10-15 09:20:20
Magritte may have been reinventing the wheel. It also means that I am not condemning modern art which may in by its own nature be nihilistic, that the operative word there is “if.” That if means that we ought not rush to judgment too precipitously because our lenses are biased; we are modern man judging himself and, as you point out, despite his hubris modern man too is a child affected by his own history and circumstance: man makes history but the opposite is also true, history makes man and the only reason we can eventually bring history before a jury is that we remain free, we can overcome nihilism and are not completely determined by our circumstances; we are more than ourselves and our circumstances. Eventually, humankind will have put enough distance between itself and post-modernity to be able to come up with a more objective view. Indeed, we shall be judged and it may not be necessarily a positive and enthusiastic verdict. (continued below)


Emanuel Paparella2008-10-15 09:20:48
By the way the collapsing of tragedy into comedy was also understood by the Greeks which always followed a tragedy such as Medea or Oedipus with a slapstick comedy. The catharsis is a purging of the emotions only in so far as the spectator can identify with what he is viewing, albeit twice or three times removed from reality…In the Opera I Pagliacci by Leoncavallo, the clown at the end of the Opera shouts “ride pagliaccio” [laugh clown] since he has actually killed a man on stage for real and not virtually. But even here the spectator knows that he is watching a play within a play. Pirandello’s Seven Characters in Search of an author plays with the same imaginative strategy, so is Shakespeare in Hamlet: “the play, the play is where I will catch the conscience of the king.” What is disturbing nowadays is that there are some who fail to understand Hamlet, or Dante for that matter, simply because even the concepts of conscience and guilt and sin have disappeared. That’s why I say that the jury is still out on modern art. After the holocaust and the gulags we ought to have learned at least this much, that not everything that arrives at the end is necessarily progress. Some of it is regression of the worst kind


Sand2008-10-15 10:12:33
This insistence on a hypothetical jury as if there is to be a final definitive judgment is a peculiar obsession. There never will be one. Life goes on and opinions change and vary with cultural developments.What decides what art will be is what the artist does.

Nihilism is a total denial of tradition and principles and art simply does not do that. It may innovate a strange perception or use of old principles or invent new principles to work on that, to the observer without mental flexibility, may appear totally chaotic but, if the interest and curiosity and ability to change viewpoints is there, the new and frequently exciting adventure of interesting innovative interplays of form and idea can be fascinating and highly worthwhile. A good deal of art is simply not symbolic and an attempt to shove in philosophically what is not there merely results in confusion and misunderstanding.

The reference to the form of the chair is a basic misconception of the nature of abstraction. After all, even in the abstract, what could a chair be? Is it a four legged platform with a back of a certain height? Can it have three legs? Can it have one leg? Can it have no legs and be merely a rush of air strong enough to support a sitting body? Can it be a sling from a tree branch? How does it differ from a hammock? Is it a seat in a vehicle? Is it a sling from a parachute? Just what is this so called perfect abstraction? Or is it merely a silly idea from somebody who didn’t think the concept through? I cannot judge Plato as a human as he no longer exists but I surely can take a critical peek at his ideas.

The idea that somewhere sometime in the future resides the perfect judgment is nonsense. If there is a future the people will probably have different standards but we must live with the standards we now possess. As long as human culture exists there will be different standards that change with time.

As I pointed out in my previous comment, the dramatic purge is nonsense. If anything severe occurrences in drama can dull sensitivities.

I wonder why the holocaust and the gulags are considered the ultimate in horror, The firebombing of Dresden, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, the carpet bombing in Viet Nam, the butchering of a million by machetes in Rwanda, the daily horrors in Iraq and Afghanistan, and in history the crusades and back and back and back humanity has no lack of enthusiasm for human torture and butchery.

To say there is no progress is to be totally blind. Morality has, perhaps, become a bit better here and there but your disdain for technology leaves you merely in silly ignorance


Emanuel Paparella2008-10-15 10:31:32
Take a good look at Edward Munch's "the scream" and it may convince you that often art reflects the zeitgeist or the spirit of the times and in that sense it is always simbolical.


Sand2008-10-15 10:50:24
I am very familiar with Munch's work. The Scream, of course was done in 1893 well over a century ago at the beginning of the exploration of artistic abstraction and of course is very symbolic with important abstract elements which is somehow reminiscent of some of some of Van Gogh's work which carries an ambiance of mental disturbance. But of course there is a mass of current work which is representative, no need to go back to Munch. I never claimed all modern art is without symbolism. But a large percentage is and is well acknowledged as being important.


Sand2008-10-15 10:58:01
As someone involved in teaching aesthetics you certainly should be aware of Francis Bacon's paintings which convey more contemporary sense of horror than Munch and, in my opinion, is even more effective.


Emanuel Paparella2008-10-15 18:01:59
Inrtiguing that gratuitous accusation of "disdain for technology" when I use a computer, a cellular, drive a car, etc. You ought to seriously consider that what in effect is much more scandalous is the desdain for taking ethical responsibilty of the uses of technology. Technology by itself proves no superiority of modern man vis a vis the ancients especially if the mindless worship of technology ends up destroying and polluting the nest in which we live. To say that technology will save us from tecnology is a ridiculous tautology. The Greeks knew that, today our misguide silly hubris prevents us from knowing it too.


Sand2008-10-15 18:39:07
Strange as it seems to the unobservant mind "Technology will save us from technology" is not at all a tautology. If humans can use new technology to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere put there by inefficient technology it will indeed benefit us in fighting global warming. If new technology in fishing and fish farming will halt the destructive technology now used to catch fish, it will indeed benefit the world. If atomic fusion can replace the filthy coal and fission power stations, it will indeed do remarkably good things for humanity and the Earth. I doubt the Greeks had enough technology to gauge its effects, especially in a world of such low population as compared to today.


Emanuel Paparella2008-10-15 22:17:06
It is what you do with that technology that will make it beneficial or harmful. The Greeks can teach you that how to use it well will not be given to you by technology, not even by a supercomputer that looks human but is just a robot. Robocop may be more efficient in apprehending criminals but that is because it is not human, feels no guild when it kills the wrong man and has no doubts whether to shoot or not. It makes no ethical decisions. To have reduced Man to that is one of the saddest chapters of our so called technologically superior times. For shame.


Sand2008-10-16 04:55:44
It appears civility in discussion has no benefit whatsoever on raising the intellectual level here. Any army, ancient Greek or current, runs because soldiers do not question orders. Despite the illegality of "following orders" discussed at Nuremberg no army could function if each soldier questioned the orders of his superior. The candidate McCain flew missions specifically aimed at civilian targets in Vietnam, Truman destroyed two civilian cities with atomic bombs, the Germans and Japanese were equally merciless. And this brutality continues today. Machines make no difference at all in this area and someone of your level of perception should see how obvious that is. It seems not.


Sand2008-10-16 06:01:33
Insofar as civilian police are concerned although I am sure a good number of cops do have decent sensibilities, the police brutality records are notorious for killing people (as in the Amadeo Diallo case)with no justification whatsoever and getting off scot free. A mechanical cop might not be much better but it couldn't be too much worse. It certainly could not blame misjudgments on the basis of being frightened.


Anon2010-04-07 18:32:19
Did you get most of this entry from the introduction to Aristotle in Thomas Wartenberg's anthology?


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